Difficult characters (LARP)
Aug. 7th, 2009 10:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
usernamenumberOne of the reasons I keep coming back to Threads is that it has provided me with some exceptionally challenging characters. One such type of character I've been given on a few occasions is the devil's advocate, the character who is there to represent, often antagonistically, an opposing point of view for the players to deal with. In some of these cases I've read the description and said "I don't think I can do this", like playing a racist border guard or a crusader bent on killing everyone that won't convert in an "infidel" city. And yet, as with many of the things I've said that about, I've never regretted doing it anyway. I find the exercise of trying to squeeze myself into the headspace of a character, even one whose position I would never personally espouse, very rewarding. Everyone has assumptions, preferences and prejudices that allow them to believe the things they believe, and the challenge of attempting to understand (or at least approximate) that kind of headspace provides insight both into how one who believes such things could justify it to one's self and into my own assumptions by defining alternatives. I don't presume to say I understand completely how group X thinks, as I have a lot of problems with those kinds of assertions in general, but it is useful to explore how one member of group X could think, and how and why I differ from him.
This brings me to the character who has been dubbed by some, "Dirk the friendly magical Nazi", and who has strangely become one of my all-time favorites to think about and play.
First, some background about the character and the game, then a roleplaying dilemma with which I am currently dealing, and about with I welcome advice (Threads players, be warned, this could be a bit spoilery, but probably not too much).
The premise behind Threads of Damocles is that reality has been shattered into multiple timelines called "threads", each of which broke off from history-as-we-know-it at a different time, with varying degrees of "weird stuff" (magic, hypertech, etc), but which are connected to one another geographically. It's basically an alt-history buff's playground. One of these threads, which has generally been used as an easy source of antagonists for the players, is called The Free State of Danzig. It is based on a real city in Poland, the inhabitants of which were mostly of German descent, and who, in the prelude to WWII, eagerly awaited "liberation" by the German army. The Threads wiki page explains things better than I could, so I'll point people who want to know more there, but the essentials are as follows:
That last bit is, I think, the only reason I was able to take on the character, as at least it didn't require me to try and justify mass murder.
Four games ago, the person in charge of the Danzig plotlines decided that, in light of several adversaries the players were facing, which threatened humanity/reality as a whole, Danzig would send "observers" to work with the players in fighting their common enemies. Unlike normal cast characters, these characters would be statted like full player-characters, and sometimes even sent on missions knowing no more about what was going to happen than the players (usually cast players are "in on it" and know what the twist is going to be). The one-page summary I was given for the character had the following short description:
"You are the German, fascist version of a “good old boy”. You don’t hate the “lesser races”; in fact you have warm feelings toward them, like a father toward his children. Of course you have no doubt they should be guided like children, but that doesn’t mean you mean them any ill will. You just don’t know any better, given the way you were raised. In general, you’re willing to let such things slide, being a happy, friendly person by nature."
Then the some comments about Danzig characters in general, like:
So essentially, my mission was to show up at game, say "Hallo, I am from Ze Reich und I am here to help!" (didn't actually say that, but the look on the face of the player-characters' leader when I and the other Danzig emissary walked up and 'Heil!'d him was pretty priceless), then proceed to be a friendly, helpful Nazi and make friends with the player characters (who understandably hate Danzig and everyone of authority from it), but without taking the easy redemptive path of having the character "see the light" and forsake his ideology. I really, really did not (and do not) want to do the "Star Trek thing", by which I refer to that constant undercurrent of cultural elitism in the show, wherein Worf, Spock, and even Quark, just by virtue of spending enough time around right-thinking humans, learn to be a little more human themselves... and yet the humans around them rarely if ever become more Klingon or Vulcan, let alone Ferengei.
I spent a long time wondering if I could actually pull this character off and, if I could, if I even wanted to go there. It kinda freaked me out, and yet, I'm glad I did it. Dirk has been a fascinating character to play because he's a study in how an otherwise decent person, which statistically-speaking must exist in even the most terrible societies, can rationalize, even take pride in, that society.
For any non-trivial role, devils-advocate or not, I spend a lot of time before-hand planning out what I will say or do in different circumstances, but the most amazing times for me as a roleplayer are the ones where I'm so in the character's head that I start reacting spontaneously, with thoughts that I would never have come up with myself, even planning ahead. It's only happened to me a few times, almost all at Threads games, and it's kind of freaky, but also really amazing and exhillerating. I've spent more time researching and thinking about Dirk and his motivations than almost any other character I've played, and yet these moments that transcent playing the part by rote still happen and, scarily, they kind of make sense.
Example:
As luck would have it, the first player-character to give Dirk the time of day was "Doctor Jay", who also happens to be, both the player and the character, of mixed race (European and African). Over the course of a few games, and more than one occasion of staying up talking and "drinking" in-character until 3ish in the morning, Dirk's had more face-time with her than with anyone else. Obviously she represents a special challenge for me as Dirk, because the character is a top-of-her-class doctor whose very existence is somewhat at odds with the Danzig party line. During that last game I was at, she finally asked the question I'd been waiting for,
"So, what about me? How do you explain me?".
I gave her the answer I'd decided ahead of time would be Dirk's response, which was basically, "I do not wish to cause offence to you, but you are... a statistical anomaly. And good for you, for your success! And yet one cannot build a society on statistical anomalies. Anomalies by their nature can never have a place in an Ordered society. Have you not always felt like an outsider? Like you never quite 'fit'? It must have been so hard for you..."
She responded that whether or not she felt like an outsider really depended on the environment. At school, she did not. She was told that she could do anything, that she could have her dreams. She was judged soley on her merits, and she excelled.
At this point it was all improv territory. The conversation had gone beyond the talking points I'd prepared... and yet, immediately, a response came to me,
"But how many other, less exceptional, children had their dreams dashed because they too were allowed to believe that they could be anything, when in truth they could not? Hundreds? Thousands? Perhaps even millions? And was that worth your personal success?"
...that was not a thought that had existed in my head until Dr Jay's response got in there and bounced off of a little bit of processing that had apparently been set aside to work in "Dirk mode". It was pretty amazing, for that reason and because it illustrates a big part of where Dirk is coming and how he justifies the way his society works without just hand-waving that he's a monster. As he sees it, Dirk is from a society of Order, where everyone has a place and the vast majority take joy in filling that place, knowing that every one is a vital organ in the body of the state. He would love to have a society wherein no one had to wear explosive collars, but why are you talking to him about it? If you want them to be un-necessary, convince those who believe they are better than the place they've been allotted by the genetic meritocracy. Dirk, who has dark hair, would love to be a general, who wouldn't? But that is not his lot in life any more than it is the lot of a servant, and if we could all just accept that and take pride in our roles, we would all get along and the state would be the better for having all the right people in all the right places. Simple.
So as I said, it's been a fascinating thought-experiment that's ultimately yielded a different way to look at the world, even if not one I intend to incorporate into my own worldview. But now this brings me to some problems I am trying to deal with.
Every game takes place at a different Thread, and the next game, later this month, will take place in Danzig. Out-of-game, it is pretty much known by everyone involved that Danzig is very likely to be doomed, if not outright destroyed, by the end of the session. I'm not sure why or how (though there is supposedly a "terrible secret of Danzig", which will be discovered, and which I've gathered will pose a serious crisis of faith for anyone loyal to the regime there.
So, two main questions:
1) How do I deal with that without doing the Star Trek Thing? Is there a point at which it is actually plausible for a fantic to "see the light"? Or does any scenario wherein loyalty to the state becomes impossible also automatically break him mentally? A likely endgame I've been envisioning for Dirk involves him seeing the darker side of his society, being repulsed by it, but still going down fighting for them because the right will prevail and the strong will survive, and though the PCs moral victory lies in him hoping that Danzig loses the fight and is proven wrong, he still cannot be anything but a Danziger. This would be dramatically rich, but also... well, I like playing the character, and I both selfishly want to salvage him if it's possible, and I don't want to decide ahead of time that I will doggedly refuse to redeem him if that's too strong of a position.
Put simply: I have no idea how to assess what his breaking point should be, and I'm very afraid that when the moment comes I will either over-react and destroy him un-necessarily and/or implausibly or I will wimp out and miss an oportunity for a good, dramatic, character-appropriate endgame that serves the story and the player experience in favor of "saving" the character. Not sure if advice is possible here, but hey, I'll take it if you've got it.
Edit In re-reading this, I don't think I was as clear as I could have been about what I'm looking for. I'm not so much asking "which way should I go with him", so much as on a cultural/sociological level, for suggestions and insights into when/if fanatics can be broken of their beliefs, and does that always break them in the process? I don't plan on pre-deciding which way to go along that fork in the road, I just want to be sure I recognize it when I get there.
2) I had a second thing, but I think I've worked it out, though I still welcome opinions. The issue is basically this: If there was a thing I could do that would make Dirk significantly more emo next game, engendering some pretty intense drama and even animosity from him to some of the PCs, at the expense of the jovial, fun Dirk people know, would that be worthwhile? And am I maybe biting off more than I can chew here, as this would represent yet another situation wherein I as a player would have an incentive to allow Dirk to be talked out of it, and where doing so might be necessary for him to be functional, but where it's questionable at best whether there's any way to actually do that in a way that isn't a cop-out.
Anyway, it's been helpful just cogitating on this "out loud", but if anyone has advice I am of course open to hearing it.
This brings me to the character who has been dubbed by some, "Dirk the friendly magical Nazi", and who has strangely become one of my all-time favorites to think about and play.
First, some background about the character and the game, then a roleplaying dilemma with which I am currently dealing, and about with I welcome advice (Threads players, be warned, this could be a bit spoilery, but probably not too much).
The premise behind Threads of Damocles is that reality has been shattered into multiple timelines called "threads", each of which broke off from history-as-we-know-it at a different time, with varying degrees of "weird stuff" (magic, hypertech, etc), but which are connected to one another geographically. It's basically an alt-history buff's playground. One of these threads, which has generally been used as an easy source of antagonists for the players, is called The Free State of Danzig. It is based on a real city in Poland, the inhabitants of which were mostly of German descent, and who, in the prelude to WWII, eagerly awaited "liberation" by the German army. The Threads wiki page explains things better than I could, so I'll point people who want to know more there, but the essentials are as follows:
- Over a century has passed in subjective time in Danzig
- A messianic religion has formed around "the coming of The Hitler", who is expected to have blonde hair and blue eyes
- A substance called Vril has been discovered, unique to Danzig, which effectively gives people magical superpowers.
- The social model of Danzig could be described as "Nazi-lite". Society is stratified along racial/genetic lines, with those with the most "aryan" traits at the top and the "lesser races" (Jews and Gypsies, mostly) at the bottom, forced to wear explosive collars to prevent an uprising. Yet there are no death camps. In fact, Most Danzigers have never heard of such things. Danzig is not a nice place (at least for many), but the theme of the tyrrany there is "order", not extermination.
That last bit is, I think, the only reason I was able to take on the character, as at least it didn't require me to try and justify mass murder.
Four games ago, the person in charge of the Danzig plotlines decided that, in light of several adversaries the players were facing, which threatened humanity/reality as a whole, Danzig would send "observers" to work with the players in fighting their common enemies. Unlike normal cast characters, these characters would be statted like full player-characters, and sometimes even sent on missions knowing no more about what was going to happen than the players (usually cast players are "in on it" and know what the twist is going to be). The one-page summary I was given for the character had the following short description:
"You are the German, fascist version of a “good old boy”. You don’t hate the “lesser races”; in fact you have warm feelings toward them, like a father toward his children. Of course you have no doubt they should be guided like children, but that doesn’t mean you mean them any ill will. You just don’t know any better, given the way you were raised. In general, you’re willing to let such things slide, being a happy, friendly person by nature."
Then the some comments about Danzig characters in general, like:
- You are a fanatic. Even if you have a rationality-oriented job, such as scientist, your rationality is yoked to a pathological desire to be approved by those in authority.
- Breeding is regulated by the state, as is natural. You were raised by the Hitler Youth.
- You don't know what a concentration camp is. The lesser races serve as slaves, as they should, with their explosive radio collars.
- Time and space was shattered by treacherous Jewish magick, but the Hitler (who you imagine as a blond man) will fix it some day. You’ve been briefed not to talk about this much, and concentrate instead on fixing things.
So essentially, my mission was to show up at game, say "Hallo, I am from Ze Reich und I am here to help!" (didn't actually say that, but the look on the face of the player-characters' leader when I and the other Danzig emissary walked up and 'Heil!'d him was pretty priceless), then proceed to be a friendly, helpful Nazi and make friends with the player characters (who understandably hate Danzig and everyone of authority from it), but without taking the easy redemptive path of having the character "see the light" and forsake his ideology. I really, really did not (and do not) want to do the "Star Trek thing", by which I refer to that constant undercurrent of cultural elitism in the show, wherein Worf, Spock, and even Quark, just by virtue of spending enough time around right-thinking humans, learn to be a little more human themselves... and yet the humans around them rarely if ever become more Klingon or Vulcan, let alone Ferengei.
I spent a long time wondering if I could actually pull this character off and, if I could, if I even wanted to go there. It kinda freaked me out, and yet, I'm glad I did it. Dirk has been a fascinating character to play because he's a study in how an otherwise decent person, which statistically-speaking must exist in even the most terrible societies, can rationalize, even take pride in, that society.
For any non-trivial role, devils-advocate or not, I spend a lot of time before-hand planning out what I will say or do in different circumstances, but the most amazing times for me as a roleplayer are the ones where I'm so in the character's head that I start reacting spontaneously, with thoughts that I would never have come up with myself, even planning ahead. It's only happened to me a few times, almost all at Threads games, and it's kind of freaky, but also really amazing and exhillerating. I've spent more time researching and thinking about Dirk and his motivations than almost any other character I've played, and yet these moments that transcent playing the part by rote still happen and, scarily, they kind of make sense.
Example:
As luck would have it, the first player-character to give Dirk the time of day was "Doctor Jay", who also happens to be, both the player and the character, of mixed race (European and African). Over the course of a few games, and more than one occasion of staying up talking and "drinking" in-character until 3ish in the morning, Dirk's had more face-time with her than with anyone else. Obviously she represents a special challenge for me as Dirk, because the character is a top-of-her-class doctor whose very existence is somewhat at odds with the Danzig party line. During that last game I was at, she finally asked the question I'd been waiting for,
"So, what about me? How do you explain me?".
I gave her the answer I'd decided ahead of time would be Dirk's response, which was basically, "I do not wish to cause offence to you, but you are... a statistical anomaly. And good for you, for your success! And yet one cannot build a society on statistical anomalies. Anomalies by their nature can never have a place in an Ordered society. Have you not always felt like an outsider? Like you never quite 'fit'? It must have been so hard for you..."
She responded that whether or not she felt like an outsider really depended on the environment. At school, she did not. She was told that she could do anything, that she could have her dreams. She was judged soley on her merits, and she excelled.
At this point it was all improv territory. The conversation had gone beyond the talking points I'd prepared... and yet, immediately, a response came to me,
"But how many other, less exceptional, children had their dreams dashed because they too were allowed to believe that they could be anything, when in truth they could not? Hundreds? Thousands? Perhaps even millions? And was that worth your personal success?"
...that was not a thought that had existed in my head until Dr Jay's response got in there and bounced off of a little bit of processing that had apparently been set aside to work in "Dirk mode". It was pretty amazing, for that reason and because it illustrates a big part of where Dirk is coming and how he justifies the way his society works without just hand-waving that he's a monster. As he sees it, Dirk is from a society of Order, where everyone has a place and the vast majority take joy in filling that place, knowing that every one is a vital organ in the body of the state. He would love to have a society wherein no one had to wear explosive collars, but why are you talking to him about it? If you want them to be un-necessary, convince those who believe they are better than the place they've been allotted by the genetic meritocracy. Dirk, who has dark hair, would love to be a general, who wouldn't? But that is not his lot in life any more than it is the lot of a servant, and if we could all just accept that and take pride in our roles, we would all get along and the state would be the better for having all the right people in all the right places. Simple.
So as I said, it's been a fascinating thought-experiment that's ultimately yielded a different way to look at the world, even if not one I intend to incorporate into my own worldview. But now this brings me to some problems I am trying to deal with.
Every game takes place at a different Thread, and the next game, later this month, will take place in Danzig. Out-of-game, it is pretty much known by everyone involved that Danzig is very likely to be doomed, if not outright destroyed, by the end of the session. I'm not sure why or how (though there is supposedly a "terrible secret of Danzig", which will be discovered, and which I've gathered will pose a serious crisis of faith for anyone loyal to the regime there.
So, two main questions:
1) How do I deal with that without doing the Star Trek Thing? Is there a point at which it is actually plausible for a fantic to "see the light"? Or does any scenario wherein loyalty to the state becomes impossible also automatically break him mentally? A likely endgame I've been envisioning for Dirk involves him seeing the darker side of his society, being repulsed by it, but still going down fighting for them because the right will prevail and the strong will survive, and though the PCs moral victory lies in him hoping that Danzig loses the fight and is proven wrong, he still cannot be anything but a Danziger. This would be dramatically rich, but also... well, I like playing the character, and I both selfishly want to salvage him if it's possible, and I don't want to decide ahead of time that I will doggedly refuse to redeem him if that's too strong of a position.
Put simply: I have no idea how to assess what his breaking point should be, and I'm very afraid that when the moment comes I will either over-react and destroy him un-necessarily and/or implausibly or I will wimp out and miss an oportunity for a good, dramatic, character-appropriate endgame that serves the story and the player experience in favor of "saving" the character. Not sure if advice is possible here, but hey, I'll take it if you've got it.
Edit In re-reading this, I don't think I was as clear as I could have been about what I'm looking for. I'm not so much asking "which way should I go with him", so much as on a cultural/sociological level, for suggestions and insights into when/if fanatics can be broken of their beliefs, and does that always break them in the process? I don't plan on pre-deciding which way to go along that fork in the road, I just want to be sure I recognize it when I get there.
2) I had a second thing, but I think I've worked it out, though I still welcome opinions. The issue is basically this: If there was a thing I could do that would make Dirk significantly more emo next game, engendering some pretty intense drama and even animosity from him to some of the PCs, at the expense of the jovial, fun Dirk people know, would that be worthwhile? And am I maybe biting off more than I can chew here, as this would represent yet another situation wherein I as a player would have an incentive to allow Dirk to be talked out of it, and where doing so might be necessary for him to be functional, but where it's questionable at best whether there's any way to actually do that in a way that isn't a cop-out.
Anyway, it's been helpful just cogitating on this "out loud", but if anyone has advice I am of course open to hearing it.
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no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 03:04 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 04:26 am (UTC)1) I think you hve to risk losing Dirk. Force feeding him a contrived revelation would kill the character. What you'd be playing afterwards wouldn't be the character you're trying to save. Maybe a way out will present itself and if it does, by all means take it. But dot ruin the character to try to save him. All my best characters have been ephemeral. Prolonging my playtime with them would only ruin what made the character cool.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 05:00 am (UTC)If, however, you would prefer not to fully embody this character and his ideologies/worldview, you would probably be able to plan ahead which way you want to take him, and I think either storyline would be an interesting one to explore. On the one hand, you could find what the breaking-point of such a rigid and deeply-ingrained ideology could be. On the other hand, there is the ongoing debate and being able to robustly and believably defend that system to the others in the group.
Honestly, I don't recommend planning it ahead of time, though -- I think it will be less satisfying for both you and the other participants... Determining the point at which a revelation would be plausible is unnecessary if you're wholeheartedly playing the character, because that moment either will or will not appear organically.
As to your second question, whether to stir the pot... Well, again I think this is best discovered organically. If you make a decision to do so or not beforehand, you are shutting off openness to in-the-moment developments that will naturally arise with the other players.
I guess my main advice talking point is: don't plan, don't predict, don't try to second-guess or prepare too much. Just go in there and be Dirk. See where he takes you.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 05:04 am (UTC)As a professional actor, I make a conscious point never to pass negative personal judgment about the character I am playing, while I'm playing them. I do not think of them as wrong, because they don't think of themselves as wrong.
To judge and caricature them into a superficial outward appearance is not, in my experience, as effective as releasing judgment and building empathy.
YMMV.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 06:03 am (UTC)I hope that was useful; re-reading the comment, I'm not sure it actually added anything to the conversation, but I found it useful for myself, so I'll post it in the hopes that someone else will as well.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 06:09 am (UTC)Obviously, I'm not you, but if I were in your situation, I wouldn't try to plan Dirk's reaction. I would go in knowing that he might break or he might die or he might even "do the Star Trek thing," but I'd play it totally off the cuff. It sounds like you've got enough of a handle on the character to pull it off, and seriously, the best RP sessions I have ever played have been totally improvised reactions to potentially psyche-breaking situations.
2) Does the prospect of doing so make you smile? If yes, do it. If not, don't.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 06:32 am (UTC)No, seriously, remember also that you have the anti-Nazi time bomb that is ZQ to contend with. He's been seething - visibly, at times - with repressed resentment and burning hatred for the Nazis* for several games now, and deploying in Danzig will be the Point of Angsty Boom for him. I have him slated to lose his noodle completely and go off on . . . well, probably you. :)
(* For those non-Threadsers, ZQ is so old he was one of the American soldiers at the actual Nazi concentration camp liberations, and he's never gotten over it. Although he's otherwise a pretty mellow dude, he has an irrational hatred of the Nazis because he's never quite let it go.)
Anyway, if you want to do some corroboration on how things will work out - perhaps my spazzing out will jar something loose in Dirk, or I say something that gets him to think about something differently - let me know and we'll corroborate.
a view from Berlin
Date: 2009-08-08 11:40 am (UTC)Something like the upcoming scenario which you are descibing, actually happened in the real world in 1945. The regime was taken down, major cities reduced to rubble with tremendous civilian casualties, and soon the survivors were confronted with the realities of the genocide that had been committed in their names (most of them knew there were concentration camps, but had thought they were just places were prisoners had to work very hard). The character that you're describing doesn't especially strike me as a "fanatic", but more the average person who has swallowed the dogma and finds it suitable for the world he understands, and feels loyal to the regime. Yes, that loyalty will break at some point, but at the moment of the downfall, it's unlikely to be his primary concern. He'll just be happy if he can survive... as I'm sure were the people who lived on my current block 64 years ago. (My building seems to have escaped unscathed, but I'm not so sure about whatever was across the street at the time.)
Re: a view from Berlin
Date: 2009-08-08 11:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 12:39 pm (UTC)Well, here's the problem, which in re-reading my post I didn't really make clear: The occasional breakthrough aside, this is still a very, very foreign mindset for me. I think that without the planning I do ahead of time I wouldn't be able to make spontaneous in-character decisions because that's what primes the pump, as it were, and assembles the "Dirk-mode" part of my brain.
In other words, I'm not so much looking to make a decision about which way to go, as I am concerned that without some cultural insight into when/if it's possible for a fanatic to be broken of his ideology, that aspect of Dirk-mode won't be seeded and I won't have any way to identify the right moment other than taking my own best-guess, which I don't trust to be accurate.
In that sense, it's almost more of a sociological question than an acting one.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 12:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 12:46 pm (UTC)Several people have offered this advice, and it's good advice, but I think I did not phrase the question well. I just amended my post with the following:
"""
In re-reading this, I don't think I was as clear as I could have been about what I'm looking for. I'm not so much asking "which way should I go with him?", so much as on a cultural/sociological level, for suggestions and insights into when/if fanatics can be broken of their beliefs, and does that always break them in the process? I don't plan on pre-deciding which way to go along that fork in the road, I just want to be sure I recognize it when I get there.
"""
As someone who has played (and broken) a lot of this kind of character, I think you could have some valuable insights here.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 12:49 pm (UTC)Dirk's also been bottling up resentment over JET members who can't distinguish between the "false" WWII Nazis and his own people, and if I do the angsty-thing, that will be even more true, meaning if ZQ started something with him, he might just let go on him, which could be very cool.
Then again, that's another one of those situations I have a plan for, so we'll see how it goes. =;)
Re: a view from Berlin
Date: 2009-08-08 12:56 pm (UTC)Also, re the accent, I know. I'm actually rather ashamed of it, as I have had German friends co-workers who sound nothing like the stereotypical German accent, which I assume is mostly a relic of WWII mockery propaganda. ...and yet, that accent is hard and full of subtlelty. It's so much easier to just sound like Colonel Klink (Or rather, Sgt Schultz, as Dirk's full name and title is in fact Oberscharführer Dirk Schulze-- a little joke on the author's part).
In any case, my sincere apologies to actual Germans. =;)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 01:16 pm (UTC)2) The occasional dark spot can make the bright spots brighter. Jovial all the time can become hard to believe, accept, or project.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-08 09:46 pm (UTC)That being said, he hates Danzig ITSELF... but only because he had to go there and shoot people and get CANCaL2, instead of going to prehistoric England and hunting animals and getting to make strong caveman babies... ;)
Re: a view from Berlin
Date: 2009-08-08 10:01 pm (UTC)you might skip the first few paragraphs of this abstract, and read about collective guilt and the way it was experienced by the population-or not.
About the question of guilt and the Nuremberg trials: That, maybe?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5neYLYydsl8
(It seems to be hardcore propaganda though)
About re-education and the German mindset at the end of the war
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W_n8ZjV7dhc
(mainly part 3)...not sure about the 'Cultural Elitism'. But other than that, it is pretty neat.
Unfortunately, most things about the topic that I know of are in German.
Re: a view from Berlin
Date: 2009-08-09 01:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-09 01:16 am (UTC)Yes. Yes I did. =:)
Author Thoughts
Date: 2009-08-09 03:13 am (UTC)I'm strongly with those who say not to worry about it. I appreciate that you don't want to do the "Star Trek Thing", for precisely the reasons you don't want to do it... It's overused, it's arguably unrealistic...
That said, there IS precedent for it. Take this guy:
http://www.amazon.com/Fuhrer-Ex-Memoirs-Neo-Nazi-Ingo-Hasselbach/dp/0679438254
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/gergen/hasselbach.html
Now, some people on the Right argue that these sort of narratives are manufactured by the Left, but I'm not sure I buy it. There's an old saying: "There's no one more zealous than a convert."
All throughout history, there's been people who've been part of something... and then a line is crossed, and they switch. Consider what Martin Luther did in starting the Restoration, how that went against the way he was raised in a lot of significant ways.
So, if that's where things naturally seem to go, don't feel too bad about doing it. It IS a valid paradigm.
That said, more commonly, people drift out of beliefs. It happens slowly, over time. The hardcore Republican differs with the party on a single issue... And then another... And another... And slowly, over time, he drifts into the Democratic camp. Or vice-versa.
If you want to go THAT route, there will be other characters at the Danzig game who could help you there. I plan to have some characters be part of the Black Front "moderates", who believe the slaves of Danzig are holding the Aryan race back, that they Aryans being made weak by not doing their own labor. They want to free the "slave races", but only after shipping them elsewhere.
That strikes me as a more realistic path... A slow move in a slightly more liberal direction, while remaining in the "comfort zone". The Black Front people are still racists. They're still Nazis. They still worship the Hitler. They just don't believe in keeping slaves.
However, whatever path you choose, I support you as author... One thing I like to do as LARP author is give a character to a player/cast member, and see how it grows and changes and mutates without my input... I like that. :)
Dunno how helpful that is, but there you go... I will say I like the emo angle we discussed, a lot. I really want to twist the knife there for some of the more unquestioning players.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-10 02:45 am (UTC)Re: Author Thoughts
Date: 2009-08-10 09:04 pm (UTC)It is wrong, therefore, to liken someone, who has been born into a world of Nazi beliefs and who is very much able to defend those beliefs in a civil discussion in a strictly rational way to someone who has acquired them very much emotionally, through anger, and in prison. Not incidentally, there is this prevailing image of the Nazi who isn't able to get half a sentence straight:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_bRQaOI1EA
...very very different from the Ur-Nazis like Guido von List.
Another - in my opinion - ill-chosen example: Martin Luther. Only by believing the catholic church to be homogenous in itself one could assume that Luther did indeed 'rebel'. Luther was the intellectual product of two liberal orders (Franciscans and Augustinians), and the development towards his rather new belief is not only based on church scripture and - in minute detail - traceable in his lecture notes, but it is also fuelled by church logic.
I do not say that Dirk is a Doctor Angelicus, but to 'see the light' one has to come to the believe that one has erred first, and to come to that belief is considerably more difficult if one believes oneself to be led by logic, rather thän feelings.
While we are at most times ready to concede that our feelings have erred - being the most involved and muddled aspect of our personality, we take the most vain-glorious pride in our logic, and would, at times, rather die than find fault with it.
Re: Author Thoughts
Date: 2009-08-10 09:15 pm (UTC)I mean, his interaction with an Afro-American doctor is a pretty big contradiction, and, yes, he can resolve those contradictions by being incoherent... But I'll note that while he was raised Nazi, Dirk wasn't taught to hate so much as to pity the "lesser races". It's a different thing.
That said, the sort of example you give just fits with the "gradual change within the comfort zone" idea I gave. For example, I've seen the sort of incoherent neo-Nazi you quote distinguish between "black people" and "n*ggers", the former being people like Dr. J... Allowing such a person to interact with the "exceptional" black folk who "act white" while maintaining racist beliefs in all other areas.
Re: Author Thoughts
Date: 2009-08-10 09:18 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-10 09:21 pm (UTC)(A) To fuck with Aaron. ;-)
(B) It actually makes sense. As a European power, all the pre-Event "learn English" materials they would have would be oriented toward British English rather than American English.
Re: Author Thoughts
Date: 2009-08-10 09:45 pm (UTC)I do, of course, know too little to interfere with your fictional world, while I of course won't try to tell you the right of things about your own figure, I cannot help but voice a certain unease - my trouble is that by inventing an alternative reality expressions like 'being raised Nazi' completely lose their shorthand character (Hitler Youth and the lessons that go with it, a bit of 'Erlkönig' maybe), because 'being Nazi' apparently does not mean what it means in the real world, in which - by the way - it means a million things.
So - I guess that some of my discomfort may only stem from incomplete knowledge of your fictional world.
Finally, I wanted to ask a question that is not really related but hope you won't mind if I ask it anyway - why did you make up that alternative Danzig? And - did you mean for it to be put down from the start?
no subject
Date: 2009-08-11 05:17 pm (UTC)Imagine a communist who believes in giving equality to all citizens (a case opposite to the one you are thinking of). The crimes of Stalin didn't mean that equality was a bad idea. Those were just the failings of a human being.
Re: Author Thoughts
Date: 2009-08-11 08:32 pm (UTC). . . ?
no subject
Date: 2009-08-12 06:10 am (UTC)